Talk:Nun

Rename article "Nun and religious sister" ?

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved, procedural close. With limited participation, possibly due to bypassing the WP:requested moves process, no consensus to move the page emerged. The proposition received limited support from other editors, however persuasive arguments against the move were offered. –Zfish118^⋉talk 23:47, 23 April 2018 (UTC) ~~~~

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While "nun" occurs 141 times in the article, "sister" does occur 52 times. Since there is no article on religious sisters in Wikipedia, shouldn't we remain this article "Nun and religious sister" (or do you vote for a separate article "Religious sister") ? Jzsj (talk) 22:36, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Oppose The difference between a nun and a religious sister is outwardly absolutely zero. Both a member of the Poor Clares and a member of the Sisters of Mercy are here - Ireland - addressed as Sister. The differences in lifestyle do not warrant a name-change, not to mention a separate article. The Banner talk 23:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Since as you say "sister" is the dominant title, and some are not nuns, and don't want to be called nuns, why should they be covered only under the article "Nun"? I know that the "nun" article tries to handle all religions together, but that may be the problem. Maybe the Catholic situation should be covered in an entirely separate article, and cross references be made back and forth where appropriate. They say that not even God knows how many congregations of sisters there are but we can try to get a handle on the modern situation of sisters, if only as a directory to articles on the various congregations? Jzsj (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: iMHO the better way would be to write an own article religious sister. Although both nuns and religious sisters are mostly addressed as „sister“ there are fundamental differences in lifestyle which found their way in canon law. Many of those who are called vernacular „a nun“ are in fact religious sisters.--Turris Davidica (talk) 10:25, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

There's the rub! That Canon Law finds it difficult to dictate the living tradition, which here cannot be placed in the tight categories that lawyers might prefer. The most visible distinction now is that "nuns" remain praying and working in their monasteries while "sisters" see their apostolate as outside the monastery. Jzsj (talk) 12:27, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I have seen real nuns work outside their (Dutch) monastery! So that division is also blurred... The Banner talk 02:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

You make a good point, even many nuns are becoming more like sisters and most don't mind being called sisters. So why not simply rename this article "Religious sister and nun", understanding that this will range beyond Catholicism? Again, many sisters don't want to be called nuns and they shouldn't have to see themselves described in Wikipedia as a topic under nuns. Jzsj (talk) 17:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Or sisters become less different from nuns... The Banner talk 18:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

See above, we should intend to divide the article. Without splitting hairs, seeing a cloistered nun working outside the enclosure (which is occasionally possible but needs a dispense every single time) doesn't make her a religious sister nor is this characteristical for the way of life of nuns.--Turris Davidica (talk) 11:21, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Dividing is not easy and it would be a delicate job to rework the nun article not to include sisters. I'm still in favor of simply renaming the present article and tweaking it a bit. We need more input into this discussion. I wonder if any sisters edit Wikipedia; some would certainly feel strongly about this. Jzsj (talk) 05:40, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Dividing the article can be your ultimate nightmare. It means that you have to describe the differences between nuns and religious sisters, but also the way the different orders act upon their status. Including local variations due to the specific circumstances. And everything source by independent sources. Will that be worth the effort? The Banner talk 11:33, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

To avoid complications: to my opinion it can be difficult in the extreme to get a those articles correct and complete. The Banner talk 23:04, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support "Religious sister and nun" per arguments of Jzsj. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:08, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support "Religious sister and nun" -- note their are non-religious nursing sisters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjensen (talk • contribs)

You may want to sign this yourself. And does the wider use of the term present a problem or should it just be mentioned somewhere in the article? @Rjensen: Jzsj (talk) 10:40, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

I think the "nursing sister" non-religious role should be mentioned. see The Nursing Sister: A Caring Tradition (2005) by Peter Ardern ISBN-13: 978-0709074151 Rjensen (talk) 11:06, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Here is a chart of related articles. FWIW there is a precedent for "sisters and nuns." Did you know that we had a section Lay sisters?

Male	Female
Priesthood in the Catholic Church	n/a
Monk	Nun
Brother (Christian)	Lay Brother#Lay sisters
Lay brother
Friar
n/a	Catholic sisters and nuns in the United States
n/a	Catholic sisters and nuns in Canada

– Lionel^(talk) 03:52, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose "Religious sister and nun" per counterargument of The Banner - Conservatrix (talk) 08:34, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: I would find that bolding "religious sister" or even just "sisters" as a close synonym within the lead to be sufficient, as renaming the article would be extreme. "Nun" is overwhelmingly more common as a generic term, but even it not an official term in most traditions. Merrian-Webster dictionary makes little to no distinction between the terms: "sister"/"nun"/"religious", nor does Oxford: "sister"/"nun"/"religious". Both treat "religious" as relating to monastic orders. [Edit] Further, the 1913 Old Catholic Encyclopedia treats nuns and sisters in the same article, titled simply "Nuns"; what is being called "sisters" in this discussion are described in the OCE article as active congregations of nuns. I believe the term religious sister is sufficiently common to be included in the lead, but not distinctive enough to be added to the title. –Zfish118^⋉talk 16:47, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reversion nun versus sister in lead

@Turris Davidica: Regarding your recent reversion, you removed significant content, including the narrative about the level of vows taken by nuns versus sisters, but only commented on a part of the edit "it is not depending from the community but from the difference the church and the canon law makes". Do you object to the other content removed? With regard to your edit summary regarding whether the use of nun versus sister is indeed dependent on the community, I disagree with your rational because it is the "church and canon law" that defines the community. –Zfish118^⋉talk 16:36, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:Lead:

"If an article is about an event involving a subject about which there is no main article, especially if the article is the target of a redirect, the subject should be in bold" (emphasis added).

Since religious sister redirects here, and there is no main article for the religious sister subtopic, the alternate title should be in bold. Both "Religious Sister" and "Religious sister" have redirected to "nun" or a subsection of nun since the pages were created. Both redirect pages have about 200 articles that link here. I will also note that "Missionaries of Charity" has a link to "Religious sisters"; it would seem far more appropriated for inbound links from this and other relatively major articles to go the lead, rather than a subsection of subsection. If major articles linking to Religious sisters are redirected to this page, then the term should be bolded in the lead. –Zfish118^⋉talk 16:49, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Rename article "Nun and religious sister", move review

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved, withdrawn. To discus the matter further please start within a new section –Zfish118^⋉talk 23:19, 27 August 2018 (UTC) ~~~~

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I suggest that the section above on Rename article "Nun and religious sister" was tending toward renaming the article “Religious sister and nun” until the final comments and closure by zfish118. I'll leave it to you all to see if you agree with my count, but I'd like to respond to the final comments by zfish118.
Merriam Webster's actual statements are the following, clearly recognizing the distinction between “sister” and “nun”. For “sister”: “a member of a women's religious order (as of nuns or deaconesses); especially: one of a Roman Catholic congregation under simple vows". For “nun”: “a woman belonging to a religious order; especially : one under solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience". Merriam Webster is apparently not using the word “order” in a technical sense here, since in its definition of “order” it never mentions religious orders. As to “religious”, you are commenting on the adjective in Merriam Webster, not a noun that would refer to a sister or nun. Your “Both treat 'religious' as relating to monastic orders” is simply not true: religious congregations are not monastic orders. I take it by “monastic orders” you're referring to monasticism, which is described as “a religious way of life in which one renounces worldly pursuits to devote oneself fully to spiritual work.” This does not at all describe the life of sisters in a religious congregation. Note that Canon Law of 1983 uses the word “nun” in connection with monasticism (“living in monasteries”: 609#2, 614, 616#4, 630#3) and sister only in connection with religious institutes (607#2). “Institute" is used as an inclusive word, with sisters and nuns discussed separately at times in CHAPTER II. THE GOVERNANCE OF INSTITUTES. I propose that the most accurate conclusion to the discussion that was closed above is that the article be renamed “Religious sisters and nuns”, and I would propose to do this along with making a few clarifications of it in the article, subject to your reediting. @Zfish118: @The Banner: @Conservatrix: @Lionelt: @Turris Davidica: Jzsj (talk) 04:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose Second attempt, still the same answer: The difference between a nun and a religious sister is outwardly absolutely zero. Both a member of the Poor Clares and a member of the Sisters of Mercy are here - Ireland - addressed as Sister. The differences in lifestyle do not warrant a name-change, not to mention a separate article. The Banner talk 05:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

If this proves anything it is that even some contemplative groups prefer to leave aside the term "nun" these days and to be called sisters. A fortiori, those who are not in monasteries but lead an active life prefer to be called what they are, religious sisters, and we should respect that. It's not a question of a name change but of how they are distinguished in Canon Law in the Catholic church and how they are perceived to have different lifestyles, even if nuns have their own reasons for misappropriating the name "sister". Jzsj (talk) 15:52, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

And it is not the first time that you reopen a discussion when an earlier consensus went not your way. That disruptive behaviour was an important fact in getting you the topic ban (for another area, true). Please, stop with that. The Banner talk 16:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Please check if there weren't 4 on each side when someone on the "oppose" side chose to decide in his own favor. @Chicbyaccident: @Rjensen: Jzsj (talk) 00:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

A renaming is usually done by consensus, not by a headcount.So your 4-4-headcount is just prove that there is no consensus. The Banner talk 10:29, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@Jzsj: Using an aggressive tone and making accusations of inappropriate closures will not advance your cause. I added comments at the end in mid-April, believing it to be an active discussion. However I later noticed that no one had participated since mid-February; it is now mid-May. Page move discussions are typically closed within 7 days, not allowed to linger indefinitely. This is a major article, and 8 people are not sufficient for a consensus. If you still wish to rename the article, please use the procedures found at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Controversial to properly notice the rename discussion and attract an uninvolved admin or page mover to evaluate and close the discussion. –Zfish118^⋉talk 05:44, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

@Zfish118: I'm sorry if you found my truthful account "aggressive". What I took offense at is your only recognizing the "persuasive arguments against the move" and not the arguments on how those who have chosen an active, sisterly life feel when categorized under monastic nuns. Even some nuns prefer to be called sisters, as Banner points out just above. The word "nun" has taken on negative overtones in our times when many are convinced that more is needed to help those in need than to remain in a convent and pray for them, as acceptable as this life calling might be for some. After 4 years of activity, without controversy until this January, I'm just learning how to proceed in Wikipedia and appreciate your recommendation to begin a proper request for move. Jzsj (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

When proposing to rename an article, particularly with a decade-long stable title such as "Nuns", the presumption is in favor of keeping the previous title, unless strong arguments are made for a change. Your argument that "religious sister" was mentioned 52 times certainly compels its inclusion in the lead, but it does not immediately suggest that it must be included in the article title. Two other editors merely echoed your argument, and several others introduced opposing arguments and evidence that Religious sisters are not sufficiently distinct to mention in the title. Wikipedia is not a direct democracy; "voting" only facilitates discussion by making clear ones position. Discussion is meant to lead to a consensus, and you did not attract sufficient consensus that the article title was inaccurate and thus needed to be changed. Further, in your original argument, you said NOTHING at all about sisters take "offense" at being classified as being with nuns. I find it quite frustrating that you accuse me of not considering that argument, when you did not make that argument. This style of editing, appearing three months after your last edit to accuse other editors of ignoring arguments you did not make is inherently aggressive. Now that you raise the argument, I am not convinced that religious sisters would take offense at being discussed within a general women religious article titled "Nuns". Do Roman Catholic sisters, for instance, take offense at being discussed only in the "Nuns" article in the Old Catholic Encyclopedia?

@Zfish118: You're right, in the original argument I said nothing about what came up in my response to others, that "many sisters don't want to be called nuns and they shouldn't have to see themselves described in Wikipedia". I was assuming too much, that we were all conversant with the facts that the Catholic Encyclopedia was produced in 1913 and no longer spoke for the sisters after the Second Vatican Council (1961-1965); and that most sisters have put behind them the image of the nunery and, like Mother Teresa of Calcutta, leapt over the wall and immersed themselves in the social problems confronting Christians in the modern world. I hope to introduce this as a Wikipedia:Requested moves/Controversial, with the sophistication that I've achieved from all your comments here. Gratefully, Jzsj (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose, for reasons already stated above in comments, as stated by TheBanner, and in the prior discussion here: "talk:Nun#Rename article "Nun and religious sister" ?". –Zfish118^⋉talk 09:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In accord with the lack of participation, I am dropping this proposal. Jzsj (talk) 11:34, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

There is enough participation but only a massive lack of support for your proposal. Twice, by now. The Banner talk 20:47, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Religious sister revert questioned

@The Banner: I question your revert of the following:

Consequently, as used today, religious sister is a generic term, used at times by nuns but always the proper designation for those who do not live a monastic life. For all nuns the term is used as a pre-nominal: rather than saying “Nun Jane Doe” one says “Sister Jane Doe”. And those nuns who live an active life, not centered on prayer within the monastery, may prefer the designation “sister”.

These are reliable sources. New Catholic is an excellent source. Note it is "tertiary" and falls under WP:RSPRIMARY. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Primary,_secondary,_and_tertiary_sources. Canonlawmadeeasy is a blog, which is acceptable in this case since Ms. Caridi qualifies as an expert. See WP:UGC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Exceptions.

I would make one improvement, and change "centered on" to "limited to". I suggest, then, that this is a helpful addition to the article, and would like to know what others think. Jzsj (talk) 11:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Try it again with independent sources. And make sure the text is readable. The Banner talk 11:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I await your reference in Wikipedia on why these sources fail the "independence" test. And please clarify what precisely you find "unreadable". @The Banner: Jzsj (talk) 12:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Encyclopedia.com is a reliable source for basic facts. It has reasonable editorial oversight, and has reasonable academic quality. It can be used as a reliable tertiary source. As for the website Canon Law Made Easy, this appears to be a blog more than an academic source. It may be used carefully as a primary source, per WP:RSPRIMARY. Full independence is not required for secondary sources, but is a pro. See Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean independent and WP:RS.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 04:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The 1983 Code of Canon Law is a WP:PRIMARY source, and "Canon Law Made Easy" is analysis of that Code, making it a secondary source. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 07:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Do you have an opinion on the revert, and what of the encyclopedia source? Jzsj (talk) 15:16, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Unsuitable. The Banner talk 22:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Yep, the discussion went into the wrong direction so it is ignored. The Banner talk 23:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Religious sister (Catholic)

A deletion discussion regarding a related page Religious sister (Catholic) is ongoing at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Religious sister (Catholic) –Zfish118^⋉talk 15:02, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Ok 135.135.47.37 (talk) 07:14, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps time to split the article

It seems from both the lede and the use of the {{Main article}} template at the start of the Buddhism section that this article deals primarily with nuns in the Christian tradition and that those in the Buddhist tradition are dealt with in the separate Bhikkhunī. This makes more sense than making brief mention of bhikkhunī here and then directing a reader to another article for the main discussion of that topic. Indeed, I would say the fact that that article exists means that it shows this article deals with a different topic. Therefore, I propose splitting the article to remove discussion of bhikkhunī to that article and keeping here only discussion of Christian nuns. Ergo Sum 12:55, 29 January 2022 (UTC)